"GTiceman" (gticeman)
11/26/2014 at 08:36 • Filed to: None
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"GTiceman" (gticeman)
11/26/2014 at 08:36 • Filed to: None | 1
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Found this on Engadget this morning and thought it was worth a repost. The article focuses on car repair, but it could make any modification of the computer code an illegal activity.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Sweet Trav
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:42 |
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One more reason why the carburetor will never go away.
But in all seriousness, I highly doubt that any of the major american manufactures will go after this, except the possibly of hybrid drivetrain.
Its more likely that the EPA will step in and start enforcing their laws regarding emissions equipment and mods.
Unless your car can "phone home" to tell the OE that it's code has been tampered with i doubt this will be an issue. Also if cars are becoming "computers" this could backfire on the OE's who HAVE to make their products open to 3rd party mods and apps ALA Apple and Google.
Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:44 |
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Will copyright law stop you from working on your car in the near future?
No, they won't because it would be breaking other laws. Modifying an ECU is an entirely different question.
Nibbles
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:46 |
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Uh...
Provided the manufacturers go with the system outlined in the article, offering "performance" tunes and custom things through the dealer shop. Volvo does this with Polestar tunes for a number of their vehicles. Sure it's a tad more expensive than buying some software yourself and using someone else's maps, but it's factory warrantied. Shit, if anything, it would foster better modder/dealer relationships for the future.
I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. The fact that the Auto Alliance had no comment says "Well, we hadn't thought of that either!" more than "Just you wait and see how we gon' fuck you dis time"
E92M3
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:49 |
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Instead of turning up the boost for turbos, we'll be swapping electric motors anyway.
Even if manufacturers don't want their code changed, someone will develop an open source reflash for the whole ECU instead of just changing a few parameters.
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Nibbles
> Sweet Trav
11/26/2014 at 08:50 |
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Good points. Also, people have been modifying the everloving shit out of Windows since, what, 3.1 for Workgroups? Microsoft ain't care what you do with it after you purchased, as long as you purchased.
Tripper
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:52 |
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The goddamn robots, John!
Tekamul
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 08:55 |
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As long as you are not trying to revere engineer, manufacturers will not care.
The only caveat being if the NHTSA somehow tries to pin a rash of modification-based accidents on an OEM. But that should be ludicrous, because anyone modifying their ECU should be responsible for their own experiment. Of course I would have thought people putting floor mats on top of floor mats would somehow be responsible, too.
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Sweet Trav
> Nibbles
11/26/2014 at 08:57 |
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I whole heatedly disagree with this. If i re-grind the factory cam to change the valve timing, I am essentially doing what re-programming an ECU is. If i put a non-factory hood scoop on the vehicle I am altering the copyrighted aesthetic design. What if i change it to a non factory color? All change the vehicle as it was patented and copyrighted by the manufacturer.
The key thing is not passing off a factory tune as your own, or charging for it.
If you re-flash with a non factory ECU it voids your warranty. I'm OK with this.
Once I own the car, I should be able to with it, whatever I want.
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Sweet Trav
> Tekamul
11/26/2014 at 09:04 |
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The NHTSA wouldnt be able to pin it back to the manufacture because if it was pinpointed that the mod caused the issue, The mod which is a bit more involved than putting floormats over floormats and involves intent to change a dynamic aspect of the vehicle would be an intervening act that would release the manufacturer from liability because the way the mod changed the dynamic aspect of the vehicle is not forseeable. the only thing that the manufacturer has to include is a release of liability clause in the purchase documents, "if you fuck with this car and it kills someone because of what you did, not our fault brah"
For example, you put wooden wagon wheels on your new Escalade and try to go 200MPH the wheels disintegrate and you kill a bus load of nuns, puppies and girl scouts. It's your fault not the manufacturer.
nermal
> Sweet Trav
11/26/2014 at 09:07 |
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I don't believe current cars can "phone home" to report a break-in of their ECU, but I do know VWs and Audis will leave a code saying that they've been flashed. This is irreversible, and can have negative effects on your warranty.
Also, if I remember right you could get a factory tune for an E90 BMW 335 that gave a few more HP and make cool exhaust sounds on the over-run.
Not sure how other manufacturers are treating it, but I'm perfectly fine with these two examples. Want to maintain your warranty? Buy a factory tune. Want to go aftermarket? Fine, but the ECU will make a note of it and you may get denied warranty service.
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nermal
> E92M3
11/26/2014 at 09:08 |
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Not motors, just the motor controller. More boost on a turbo = More juice on an electric motor. Reliability and cooling may suffer though.
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Sweet Trav
> nermal
11/26/2014 at 09:12 |
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I'm totally OK with that as well, but trying to lock people out completely or filing a copyright claim against people modding your design is ludicrous.
DipodomysDeserti
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 09:19 |
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In the United States, making changes to your ECU is technically already an illegal activity. Modifications to any emissions control devices (which is part of what an ECU does) is a violation of the Clean Air Act.
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Tekamul
> Sweet Trav
11/26/2014 at 09:20 |
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This is exactly the rational thought that lets me sleep at night.
The issue with the NHTSA is that it isn't bound by judgement based on legal responsibilities, sometimes they go on warm and fuzzy feelings. They get around rigorous legal application with "recommendations". These recommendations can lead to mandates. For an example, check that annoying little sensor at the base of your tire valve stem. The TPMS was a nice little feature in Europe in the 80s. A few under inflated Firestones later, and now we have these annoying little buggers in every wheel (except for those that get around it with the ABS wheel speed sensors).
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GTiceman
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 09:21 |
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Everyone has had very good points on this, which is unusual this early in the morning ha. I know realistically we are not going to see crazy lawsuits, it is just sad they are trying to push further and I say this as an attorney who needs to review IP rights we give to our clients to use my company's software. Denial of warranty service is common, but I have a dealer that is great about it. I have a tuned 335 via an aftermarket piggyback and technically it only modifies as it passes, not an actual flash. For those lawyers on here this is the slippery slope argument.
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Sweet Trav
> Tekamul
11/26/2014 at 09:25 |
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NHTSA is relegated only to "Safety Critical" parts. Wheel end parts, anything that can cause a sticking throttle, structural pieces. sudden loss of power etc.
As of today there is no limit to the amount of power that a vehicle can make, it would also have to be shown that a modified ECU is substantially more likely to fail than an unmodded one.
Trevor Slattery, ACTOR
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 09:28 |
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This is a serious issue. You can thank companies like Apple, Google and Samsung who have entire legal departments dedicated to "protecting intellectual property" for this madness. Void my warranty, that I am fine with. But anything other than that is crazy.
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Tekamul
> Sweet Trav
11/26/2014 at 09:29 |
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Maybe I'm just paranoid.....
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Sweet Trav
> Tekamul
11/26/2014 at 09:34 |
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I mean chances are cars will go full automated before they will be regulated to the point where we cant work on them, then our petrol burning dinosaurs will either be relegated to track use or musuem pieces
TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
> GTiceman
11/26/2014 at 13:07 |
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No it wont. Its the same thing with removing catalytic converters. Its "illegal" but lots of people still do it.